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Full In-House Coil Group Thread
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Protokaiser
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Joined: 22 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

If memory serves when we finally came onto agreement of how our coil groups, hybrid and full FC were going to work on a week to week basis with schedules that it was decided once we got the knack of how things worked and what was needed to do there would be swapping in and out from both groups. Clearly Full FC team has the works down for turn 1 and 2 even when swapping the DD out but I'm still seeing the core team remaining the same i.e. the tanks and healers(for now its okay since Joe is brand new to coil and all) but I really want to see the tanks swap out from time to time since we have so many of them on hand and eventually the healers when more are ready at that point because I want to see that we have the flexibility to work with others that are in our own FC without any pessimism because face it when schedules change like they have been then you get bent if you're relying on that person(s) and that person(s) only. I'd rather see you contact another FC member for help rather than outsource if the case is possible because it also builds trust, a sense of worth, friendship, and comradery. I'm looking to the future of all our members as a whole, because for example what happens if Kensei maxes out and becomes ready for coil, or if Mali comes back and is ready for coil, both of whom are tanks, will you leave them in the dust to fend for themselves? You also now have Wicked who is now 50 with his relic as WHM who has extremely limited time to play on a week to week basis, you have Lucifer who has just come back and is gearing when he can and also has a tentative schedule, Shin who isn't around all that often but still plays, these are just examples as we have more up and coming (mostly tanks, good grief) that will be wanting in the group not just for gear but for the experience. Even right now we have other members we should be swapping in and out of the FC group 1 like Kunja, Zoz, Kurai, Aiea, and even Garunus.
What I'm trying to get at is it just seems that group 1 is comprised of mostly the people who have flexibly free time as of the now that is current, so if presented with the opportunity they should team up with other FC members as their main job highly preferable.

Sorry Zoz but I'm going to take a page out of your book for this because I think that these rules should apply inward before they apply outward.

Zozmodus wrote:

1. Any negative comments or indirect insulting is highly discouraged. Some players will be new and wipes will be inevitable. Any negativity not only reflects poorly on you, but on your FC as well. If any players get out of hand they will be admonished.
2. Players in this group must be willing to swap out their slot in a reasonable manner. This allows players to swap in that: wish to try coil, cannot run on a regular weekly basis due to conflicts, or wish to run on their mains if their role was filled in the 2 FC groups.
3. Players will be swapping out so loot agreements/plans will be moderated. Since there will be many different players swapping in and out of the group, loot may be argued as to who 'deserves' it. Let your generosity, not your greed, influence your decisions. If you already have a coil drop, ask if the other person wants it. If you want a drop, just ask and an agreement will be able to be formed. If your goal is to take advantage of this system, know that someone will notice and you will be reprimanded accordingly.


What my goal in sight is, is people being able to swap out on a weekly basis without any bickering, saltyness of being left out/shifted out, or negativity. I'm not saying static is bad, on the contrary it's good for a start on things to get the hang of something, but we agreed that there would be swapping after the hang was gotten. We need to expand from small group static to FC static in other words.

This is my view and opinion of this situation as the FC leader. I'm glad to see we've come so far in these first few months as far as co-operation and FC comradery goes, but I know we can go even further than this guys.

If you have anything you'd like to discuss with me, please let me know via private message or mumble. If there are any spelling errors, grammatical errors, or typos, forgive me it's 4 am and I'm just barely tipsy from the concert a few hours ago.
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Toasty



Joined: 09 Aug 2013
Posts: 75
Location: Watching a polo game from my yacht

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Protokaiser wrote:
What my goal in sight is, is people being able to swap out on a weekly basis without any bickering, saltyness of being left out/shifted out, or negativity. I'm not saying static is bad, on the contrary it's good for a start on things to get the hang of something, but we agreed that there would be swapping after the hang was gotten. We need to expand from small group static to FC static in other words.


This part right here might be the cause of some debate, since it could be defined in a multitude of ways. If you ask me, getting the hang of coil consists of getting the hang of all 5 turns, and too much group swapping prior to that point would only serve to make it difficult to make any progress due to lack of team unity. However I'm confident that with 2.1 and CT right around the corner, achieving this goal could realistically happen in a week or two.

On the other hand, I would like to be doing some switching out myself, as I'd love to have the chance to bring my WAR into coil even for the first couple of turns. Even my DRG would like a shot as soon as it hits 50 since it's already got DL items. However the problem is that this group is unintentionally schedule locked since too many people only have free time on too few days and FC activity as a whole has waned recently. Hopefully 2.1 causes a bit of a revival (Cu Chin is even back and is an aspiring DRG even though this is pre-2.1) because as of right now swapping to people in the FC who are not in a group is all but impossible.


TL;DR let's wait until downing turn 5 before making any major roster changes for the sake of team unity (this applies to the later turns since letting people experience turns 1-3 wouldn't stop that), but giving others a chance to run should still be the end goal. Even more ideally would be getting enough people to be able to run two in-house groups a week to help out.
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SolarMisae



Joined: 15 Jul 2013
Posts: 131
Location: A Grove filled with Elks...apparently. Still looking for them.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as week to week swapping, I'm pretty sure thats like exactly what we said we were gonna do. I feel the tanks specifically should dicuss that among themselves though, as it's not my place to say who SHOULD step down or not. I don't mind taking Kunja or Zoz into coil, or going into a different group myself. Like that was pretty much like exactly what I thought we were planning on doing...

To touch on the other thing you mentioned, Kensei Mali Lucifer etc. I feel like that (AS OF RIGHT NOW, PLEASE DON'T KILL ME) has no real effect on what the Coil groups should be doing with their time.

In the case of say Kensei and Mali, neither of them have been able to play lately, no thats not their fault, and thats fine, and whenever they do play of COURSE we'd help them out! I have NO PROBLEMS helping people gear up, or run contents. Like Matt said, Cu Chin came back after a long hiatus and it was actually my suggestion we help him with whatever story parts he was on...it was...Qarn...*shudder* But I did it anyway cause yo I like helping people. I'd do the same for Kensei and Mali in a heartbeat once they find the time to play. But until then I feel like that has no bearing on the current coil-ready people is all.

Once again, please don't kill me, but you can't leave someone out of something if they don't show up in the first place. I say again, not their fault at ALL, I just hope you know (your post implies otherwise) that I most certainly wouldn't leave them in the dust. You know I love Kensei and Mali, of course I'd help them out when they needed it. :<

And to touch on my other bud, Luci knows I'ma help him out whenever he needs me. Raika and myself ALWAYS love a Lucifer party.

But yeah what Lance described is preeetty much exactly what I THOUGHT we said was gonna happen, all people need do is say "Hey I want in this week" and we can shift as needed. Any of us would easily be willing to step down for them and join other groups that week.
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Kion



Joined: 28 Aug 2013
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A big issue I have with swapping is how it's done. We haven't swapped members because NO ONE HAS ASKED TO JOIN! Just to take the tank role, if Kunja or Zoz asks to join, then Haken and I talk amongst ourselves and figure out who is stepping down. If you don't step up and say "I want in," you're not getting in.

"Boohoo, the FC doesn't help me." They won't if you don't ask! That's how it is with BC, WP, AK, gearing up, clearing story, etc. Don't ask? Don't complain.
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Aiea



Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one asks because no one wants to force someone to step down from their group.  It should be a FC self motivated rotation and not by request.

All the people that are not included or have not asked have consistently cleared up to t4, being left out of the group doesn't stop their progression.  

Coil is not about asking for help, it's about bonding the group.  No one that is currently capable of running coil needs the FC to down turns.  Story mode? yes, that would be help, and you would need to ask for people to know that you needed help.
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Kaguya Skye



Joined: 15 Jul 2013
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Protokaiser wrote:
What my goal in sight is, is people being able to swap out on a weekly basis without any bickering, saltyness of being left out/shifted out, or negativity. I'm not saying static is bad, on the contrary it's good for a start on things to get the hang of something, but we agreed that there would be swapping after the hang was gotten. We need to expand from small group static to FC static in other words.


I'm going to bring this back again. Because as far as my knowledge goes you can't say it hasn't been done.  If my memory serves, you guys were utilizing the LS people since there was a lack of other lvl50s, the "League of Tanks" or schedules, or I dunno what.  You guys got the strategy then, cool.  If I recall, every time after the FC/LS guys understood and can clear T1/T2 consistently and enter T4, Kion and Toast brought in new people each time.

Thanksgiving weekend was my first Coil run as a Bard, I think it was Cryo's first in T2, and Aiea was brought in as a second healer.  Week after we brought in Joe, with Cryo and myself still being new at the T2 experience, where we encountered new obstacles.

Like Kion says, no one has asked. At least not me.  If anyone else has an issue with "breaking up what works", I think that feeling should be buried and they should talk to Kion, you, anyone in our current Coil group so we can work something out. As far as I'm concerned the 5 on Mumble (Toasty, Elena, Joe, Kion and myself) yesterday said outright we wanted to see people switch up, so I don't think there's a lot of potential issues when most of us feel like that.
I'm sure once Rayea is fully geared (and I've been helping her when I can) she will be a Bard to bring in as well.  Wicked included (I think he's missing at least his accessories).

But no matter geared or not, we can make arrangements so long as they talk. say something or utilize the forums so we know whats going on rather than someone getting mad or feels "Left out".  I know schedules are awkward for some, but like Elena says, we'll get there when we have more Coil eligble people in our FC.

I am the only geared, dedicated Bard for Coil at this moment. (Elena you don't count because you need and have yet to get something out of Coil and I'm not letting you go into Coil as something else) so I'll go anywhere the FC needs me. As far as I'm concerned: I like being a Bard, being in Coil as a Bard, and I'm not looking to tank anytime soon :3 (DRG is another story)

And Luci knows I'll always support him, he need only ask and I'm sure we'd figure out a solution. With what negativity any Coil discussion brings, personally I would like to see and welcome his attitude/personality in our Group any time.

But communication needs to happen befire things can get done.  Personally (and unfortunately), I don't know how the other group has been doing as far as the "hybrid" group goes, last I heard this last week was PUGs
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SolarMisae



Joined: 15 Jul 2013
Posts: 131
Location: A Grove filled with Elks...apparently. Still looking for them.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what I'm seeing and now I have no idea wtf anyone wants to do anymore.

I completely agree with Raika. There is NO COMMUNICATION RIGHT NOW.

We need to rotate, kay, lets rotate. Assume all people from both sides are willing to step down in favor of anyone or any role.

But no one is saying they wanna join cause they don't wanna force someone out.

We specifically said we were WILLING to swap out so no one is forcing ANYONE out of ANYTHING.

It's going in circles.

"Rotate."
"Okay lets do it, who needs/wants it?"
"No we're not gonna ask."
"Er...kay...? No rotate?"
"No we still need to rotate."
"Okay once again we're willing to swap in anyone anywhere!"
"No, no one is gonna ask to join."
"...but...wait...how do we know who to bring in?"
"Please rotate your members."

And around we go!

I feel like we're being told that it's our job and our job alone to say "You. Get in here." To specific people...

So. Fine. Lets do this.

If Kalana or Alex would please step down this week, would Kunja or Zoz like to join in their stead?

I am also willing to step down in my role if say Garunus or any other DD would like to join. I don't have anyone specific to walk up to and ask, as there aren't many DDs within the FC who seem to want/need BCoB. I need to know who those people are and I will approach them with a written invitation if that's what it takes.
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Kaguya Skye



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus with our FC active members being small with the amount of Coil readys at an uneven and smaller amount, AND we run Coil on THURSDAY to start, that should be enough time for people to speak up/work something out by Thursday.

It is a bit late in the week to start Coil, personally I'd rather do it early so the 50 myth from each turn counts for me. I am very impatient, I spend myth but I'd rather see what drops in Coil before I buy myth just in case something drops.

But if the Thursday start time was utilized as a way to oranizege groups prior, I'd be okay with it.
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Toasty



Joined: 09 Aug 2013
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Location: Watching a polo game from my yacht

PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that this is even happening gave me like four different forms of cancer. I don't even have anything to add at this point because every exception to how we've got it going right now is borderline nonsensical. You can't make us feel like a team if you won't ask, and if you expect someone to "invite" you in then you're already creating a stratification of power.
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Zozmodus



Joined: 30 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like I walked onto a battlefield in here. Allow me to clarify some things.

Everyone who has posted has a very good point in their own respect. Communication is key, Team unity is key, Rotation is key.

However, the majority of these posts look like nothing but jabs. So, I will have to address them one at a time, I apologize if I do not go over your posted idea.

First things first, I see that people are still confused about the nature of the Hybrid group, so let me clarify. The Hybrid group is a challenge to maintain. Not only are we handling conflicting schedules with 2 different FCs (who each have their own forums), we are also handling conflicting schedules of individual players. I, myself, have had to completely PUG my own coil group because I had a schedule conflict. And when the FCs need to pull people from the Hybrid group, we need to find an additional person to fill that empty slot.

Things happen, computers break, people lose interest, people have work/real life issues. That is why I set up those rules. Our group is not always the perfect group every week. If someone is absent we have  to fill. If no one comes from the alliance, we have to PUG. That is the reality.

Now for the first group of ideas. Team unity and solidarity is great. Having that solid group for T4 and T5 for experience is probably the best chance of success. T1 - T3 are usually non-issues as many people are competent enough to either down it from experience, or learn it. Unfortunately, it seems as though the first thing people think about when swapping out is about gear, or being able to clear a turn with different people. If people can clear turns by PUGing their own group, what is the incentive to play in the FC group? Hell, they might get lucky and get carried through turn 5; but, that is not the point. The point of the swap out is to allow our FC to play together with everyone.

Here is a sample roster for tanks:
Week #1: Kalana, Zoz
Week #2: Kalana, Kunja
Week #3: Haken, Zoz
Week #4: Kunja, Haken
Week #5: Haken, Kalana
Week #6: Kunja, Zoz

During 1 month of runs, everyone gets to run at least twice, but things happen, so some people may get to run more or less. The problem lies with the 6th week. If you noticed, the first 4 weeks, either Kunja or I am always on the outside, so that we can attempt to maintain the Hybrid group. One of us has a good chance; but if neither of us are in it, I can almost guarantee that many of the people from ALTF4 or the alliance that we usually play with will not be answering the call for Coil. This is because we have already built rapport, and if they do not see one of us in the group, they may get skeptical or uneasy. When we started this group, and I brought Kunja in, he was not automatically trusted by everyone he met. I vouched for him and provided the opportunity to play with these people, and now they consider him as a friend. And we are able to make this connection with the new people we play with every week, and we are able to add friendly and competent people to the linkshell. I believe that everyone in our FC has the potential to make these lasting connections, and eventually these group to group transitions will be a non-issue.

Next group of ideas: Communication. Communication is a two-way street. Unfortunately, many things get lost in translation. People are people, and some people can speak their mind freely, while others cannot. Typing in a forum is a lot different than actually speaking. Some people are not as vocal. So if there is no one around to champion these unvoiced individuals, will they ever be heard? If there are issues, I try to talk to people, I try to work something out. But if I am not here, then who else is doing it? People get frustrated, they have bad days, they get sick, they get angry. When you are in such a heated state and you post or discuss something, who is talking? You or the emotion?

Instead of saying: people should do this, people should do that, why not be the bigger person and ask? If you cannot, then that is okay, people are people. If you are stronger, faster, or smarter than someone, do you trample them on your way out? or help them to their feet? If you have greater power than someone, then you have a greater responsibility.

As stated before, running Coil is not an issue about someone asking for help, because if you can PUG a group successfully, then you don't really need any help at all. The goal is to play together as friends, and as an FC. And the post about "If you don't step up and say "I want in," you're not getting in" or ""Boohoo, the FC doesn't help me." They won't if you don't ask!" or "Don't ask? Don't complain." Were these comments really necessary? If a new recruit, be it a fresh 50 or especially an experienced 50, were to see something like this; how long do you think they would stay? Do you leave the person on the ground until they ask for your help, or do you extend your hand out first?

There are a lot of people high up on the totem pole now, but the foundation is beginning to get shaky once again. It does not matter how tall the pole gets if the foundation gives way. This task is too much for someone to hold up alone. Will you jump down and sacrifice your acquired power and help to hold it up, or choose to make it heavier? Someone who can't sacrifice anything, can never change anything.

So i propose to you this. A Declaration of a Clean Slate. Everyone take a step back and take a deep breath. Forget these jabs, reset the stress, reset the hard feelings, remember too that you started from nothing to beginning to achieve. People are people, there will be tussles, there will be arguments, there will be aggressiveness and abrasion. However, again, people are people, and there will be people there to work together to move past it, to go beyond, to work together to achieve, to succeed. How you handle these situations is up to you. This not only applies to the game, but to life as well. How do you want to remember yourself? One day your life will flash before your eyes, make sure it is worth watching.

Peace!

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